7 hours…

“So many ways, but [you] can’t run away”

Even if we’d gotten things wrong, I wouldn’t have expected to see real attrition until a weekend peak, but still; its good to see that increasing resupply from 4.5 to 7 hours didn’t cause an immediate collapse of the universe. Infact, the only brigade that ran out of equipment was the German Navy’s 5th (5zf), which ran out of Fairmilies.

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So far, at least, all its done is broaden the battle trough

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21 Comments

LOL, must have been a quiet 7 hours as we can usualy run through a naval brigades supply pritty quick if we are supporting a attack.

However, certainly under the 4.5 timer we always had a naval brigade with fome fairmiles left in it. It will be interesting to see if that continues with 7 hours.

7 hour attrition will not really matter until High Commands see what happens when a brigade actually runs out:

1) Falling back with it doesnt’ give it any supply benefit.

2) Pulling it off the line usually will require an HQ to go to the front line, or abandonment of a town.

3) Enemy will likely continue to hammer at the battle space occupied by an attrited brigade…causing further attrition in that zone.

4) Brigade stacking, and holes in the line, will become more common, especially when the front line is curved, and attrition in place.

All of this is only learnable under real conditions.

LESSON: The enemy needs some indication of its rivals supply. Not real time. Not exact. Just an awareness, other than a lack of tanks or sappers that a foe is attrited and vulnerable.

That will encourage battles of a strategic nature to be planned – and not missed – by the constant changing of the High Command guard.

imho

There will definantly be an impact..especialy for the players and or squads who enjoy mainly armor or certain aircraft.
the interesting part will be how well the squads who enjoy only these type of units adapt ie;
1) form armor columns from the HQs to support or reinforce.
2) descide to go start an attrition fight where there is armor.
3) adjust to the units available in the spawn lists.
4) re-evaluate the armor Zergs so as not to waste the armor for the next 7 hours.

I noticed tonight how much infantry was on the field due to the lack of armor presence in the supply lists, I also noticed how the armor was more cautious and seen quite abit more ATGs out than usual….and this was not a high pop night.

I firmly believe this is a good thing and also believe even the squads and or players who enjoy the armor types will adapt and work alot closer with other units on the field to support each other because of this new timer..and I am hopeing as well this will create a much broader avenue for allowing continued advances with reinforced divisions while the defender has to scramble to somehow come up with a spare division to reinforce its own lines to stop the advance.

I have a resupply question. Resupply of a brigade is faster when it is in the same town as it’s controlling division. Slower when it is a town or two away.

When the brigade is knocked off the map, how fast is the resupply of that brigade?

Another follow up, when a division is taken off the map, do the brigades still receive supply? If so is it slower than the 1 – 2 towns away rate?

Am I wrong in thinking that if the brigades don’t run out of equipment, we could just as well be playing with unlimited supply? I guess the HC will move brigades around to make them not run out, but at least before the patch that mostly affected the time between brigade swaps, not combat effectiveness. It’s not like the players become more careful if they have the last unit of some sort anyway…

It seems there’s a direct contradiction between “players want to be able to get whatever unit they want” and “finite supply having an effect on the outcome”?

It is the gap of time between movements and mis movements of brigades that move the map now.

Hopefully this will lead to some break outs. With the 4 hour turn around it is farily easy to contain a break out. 7 hours should prove to be more difficult.

Another question, is ticket fulfillment time determined when the ticket is created for the resupply request?

@ LUTORM –

Exactly. Equipment is the currency of WWIIOL economy, and resupply is the money velocity and therefore a measure of “inflation”.

As resources get scarcer, value increases and players will be treating the equipment as precious. Simulating – very lightly – fear of death. In this case, fear of a loss of valuable equipment that may be the difference in a strategic level win or loss.

That should make WWIIOL even more realistic. imho.

As resources get scarcer players spawn in desirable equipment quicker so they will get to play with them. The first equipment gone from a newly placed attack objective is all the tiger tanks. I would be surprised to see a brigade ever run out of rifles given the present oversupply of infantry.

That’s why Unique TOEs are a necessary next step, Egbert. Tigers, for example, should not be appearing everywhere along the map all at once. They should appear in only one or two Armored Brigades to start with…but a larger amount…say 10 or even 15 Tigers in one or two Brigades. That way Tigers won’t necessarily be gone immediately out of the spawn list.

The main downside to Unique TOEs that I can see is the way, WAY too responsive Strategic Movement system. That system needs a major overhaul.

Mangydog, I do not know that distinguishing armor from infantry brigades will be a fun thing. What we have now is that every brigade is an armor brigade. In the real war there was not enough equipment to make every brigade an armor brigade. In a game an infantry brigade will not be as much fun as an armor brigade because it will be at a distinct disadvantage on any attack compared to an armored brigade as well as on defense against an armored brigade.

About the movement system being too fast, I agree. As it is now, it’s faster to move a brigade into a town than to drive in equipment. That should never be the case, imho. It should take a brigade at least twice as long as it would take the *slowest* (motorized) unit to drive the distance. A slower movement system would make brigade placement constitute smart placing of forces rather than currently using them as “vehicles” for reinforcing towns, and would probably also increase the frequency of manual resupply so that interdiction teams are meaningful again.

Differentiated armor/inf brigades would be interesting if there was something for a dedicated armor brigade to do. They can’t cap towns, and currently that is the only functional way to do battle. If armor could cut supply by driving a wedge in between towns and occupying territory, it would be a different situation.

By the way, I agree that a dedicated inf brigade would have a hard time attacking, but I think defense would be easier. If I didn’t have to worry about EI when playing ATG on defense, my death rate would drop by a lot. Armor trying to attack a town without inf support will be a disaster (as it should be).

Lutorm, armor brigades are not without supporting infantry. What we have now are basically armor units.

Equipment arrival upon moving a brigade to a new CP has greatly increased. It used to be several minutes before the first rifles arrived and then several more before the first vehicles arrived. Now after 2 minutes of movement 1/15 of the infantry and 1 of each vehicle type arrives in a CP.

When a brigade is used as reinforcement on defense it now usually arrives too rapidly for the attackers to handle. This was not the case previously and has resulted in some very difficult and lengthy battles.

I’m seeing many people saying different things about resupply. One in particular is that there is the idea that the 7 hour resupply can be cut in half to 4.5 hours if you move the Div HQ into the same town as the BDE of that Division that has the 7hr tickets. Or that if you deplete the Div HQ the BDEs take longer to resupply.

Can you please create a full listing of the mechanics on resupply and what affects it in the Forums?

Think we’ll probably need to expierement and find out the rules for ourselves. use the HC of your choice. We’ve been given the baseline of 7 hours, now what does 7 hours really mean?

Darn, well at least you can change it in one place and it is what it is.

Any future plans to have influences upon resupply? Like links into CP (town), Proximity to Division, factories, etc…..

Egbert, while Armored Divisions did have Infantry in their TOEs, British, French and German Armored BRIGADES/REGIMENTS, did not include Infantry in their TOEs. They were nothing but Armored Battalions. Instead, Mech INF was segregated out to their own Brigade(s), comprised of several different Mech Inf Battalions. Of course, the US Army did things a bit different, in that their Combat Commands (re: Brigades) were comprised of 1 Battalion of Armor, 1 Battalion of Armored Infantry and 1 Battalion of SP Artillery.

Personally, its why I’d advocate that TOEs be tied to Battalions and making Brigades a collection of Battalions. This way, depending on the type of Battalions you assign to a Brigade, you can create some interesting Brigades. Hell, Battalion TOEs would allow a much easier and more realistic way to introduce new equipment. For example, a new Battalion of PzIIIHs is created and is supported by RDP and is used to replace a Battalion of Pz38(t)s that is being phased out. This way, instead of seeing PzIIIHs everywhere all at once, we see them in only one or two or a small handful of Brigades. This way the introduction of the PzIIIH is not overwhelming at every point along the frontline…just overwhelming at those points along the front where the handful of PzIIIH battalions are introduced and located. (btw, I’m using PzIIIH only as an example, not meaning to pick on the Axis or the PzIIIH. You can replace PzIIIH with any other new tank introduced in Tier1 or later tiers and the example is still valid).

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Lutorn…problem with Strat movement is that Brigades respond to quickly to .move commands. There should be a delay from the time a .move command is issued and when a Brigade finally starts moving. Its kinda impossible for an HC to issue a command to a Division to move to a particular location and expect it to instantly respond. There are a couple thousand guys what need to get all on the same page. Information distributed and Orders issued. Moving a Brigade sized group of men and all their equipment and supplies aint gonna happen quickly…especially if their dugin and encamped.

How fast a Brigade moves is a whole different can of worms.

Mangydog, the Battlefield Europe brigade TO&E is unique unto itself and has no correspondence to a world war two brigade. It is the name given to the smallest units we now have and could be just as easily called Regiments or Smallest Unit.

For those players who care about realism at the operational or overview level…I’m sure there are a few of us…the number of “Brigades” on the map could be thought of as corresponding roughly to some number of Corps of infantry divisions, and some number of supported Armored Divisions.

That leads to very different understandings of the meaning of unit mobility and combat interactions than is the case if Brigades are thought of as regiments or battalions.

With such an analysis, plus some changes to the game timescale etc., one could use WWIIOL’s strat map as an illustration tool for the historical flow of the BoF campaign.

Of course, we all know that historical re-creation is not the point of CRS’s game. Nonetheless, a theoretical ability to closely simulate the historical campaign around which one has modeled a game is at the least an indication that the operational simulation is pretty decent.

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